Think Energy

Purchasing IS Power with ENERGY STAR Canada

Oct 23, 2023

More and more we seek brands and products to help us conserve energy, save money, and make a positive impact on the planet. Every purchase is powerful. ENERGY STAR Canada’s Director of Program Support and Modernization, Burt James, joins episode 123 of thinkenergy to chat ways we can harness that power. From energy-efficient products to how ENERGY STAR programs help reduce greenhouse gas emissions, save electricity, and even improve the quality of our lives. Listen to the conversation today.

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin  00:06

This is Think Energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Did you know that your wallet can help you reduce your energy footprint? Energy efficient products have become powerful tools and conservation and energy reduction efforts as people around the world become more aware of the impact their purchasing choices have on the environment. Consumers increasingly want electronic devices and appliances that use less energy to help save money on their energy bills, create a more sustainable future for people and the planet and are less wasteful and subsequently reduce greenhouse gas emissions. More and more people want to do business with brands that are just as concerned about these things as they are and they're using their wallet to send that message. More than ever, we have come to realize the power our wallets hold, we are dictating what is manufactured and produced because of how we think about and use energy. Over the last few decades and perhaps this last decade in particular, more of us are concerned about our own impact and contribution towards climate change. Enter ENERGY STAR Canada, a voluntary partnership between the Government of Canada and industry to make high efficiency products readily available and visible to Canadians. Providing simple, credible and unbiased information so consumers like us can make well informed decisions in the US alone ENERGY STAR and its partners have reduced greenhouse gas emissions by 4 billion metric tons since 1992. And save the equivalent of 5 trillion kilowatt hours of electricity. You likely know and recognize and have Energy Star products in your home already. Its logo has become a trusted symbol, particularly in the appliances space, but there's a lot more that they do then you may not be aware of. So here's today's big question. In what ways can we harness the power of our wallets to make a positive difference for our planet and what other opportunities exist through programs like ENERGY STAR to lessen our impact on the environment, and even human health? Joining us today is Bert James. He's the Director of Product Support and modernization at ENERGY STAR from the Office of Energy Efficiency. Hey, Bert, welcome to the podcast.

Bert James  03:10

Pleasure to be here.

Dan Seguin  03:11

Now. Maybe you can start by telling us how the ENERGY STAR brand came to be and why it's become such a trusted symbol.

Bert James  03:21

Thanks for the question, Dan. The Energy Star program was actually started in the early 1990s by the US Environmental Protection Agency, but was first brought to Canada in 2001. In an international partnership and our can through the Office of Energy Efficiency are the stewards of the program in Canada. It's a voluntary partnership between the Government of Canada and program participants to make high efficiency products, homes and buildings available and visible to consumers and businesses. The product program is probably the one that people are most familiar with. And it was the first member of the ENERGY STAR candidate family. There are more than 80 types of products available and 1000s and 1000s of products, we have over 1000 program participants in the product space alone. Later on in 2005. We brought in the ENERGY STAR for new homes program in 2017. ENERGY STAR for industry in 2018, Energy Star certification became available for commercial and institutional buildings. And how did it become such a trusted symbol, I think through consistent performance more than anything else, it's recognized by a strong majority, like more than 80% of Canadians know what that little blue star means whenever they see it. It's government backed, which I think gives it some credibility or at least I'd like to think so there are transparent and really strict efficiency specifications as well which makes the program reliable and the products themselves are subject to post market verification in that, you know, it's not just about what you say your product will do, but it's actually about how your product performs. So there are proven savings. The market is quite saturated I think with Energy Star products. In terms of a price comparison, there's no difference in Most product categories and by purchasing one provided that it fits your design style, you know, you're going to save money if you purchase an energy star product.

Dan Seguin  05:08

That's very cool. Now, how does your rating system and our guide fit into this equation?

Bert James  05:15

So the inner guide rating system does kind of dovetail with ENERGY STAR, but they are separate pieces. In the world of residential homes. There is an EnerGuide rating system that compares individual homes from an energy performance perspective against other homes and then issues a rating ENERGY STAR for new homes, by contrast, is actually a reflection of the energy performance as it relates to the building code. In the world of appliances. Energy Star has a certain technical specification or and I guess, to elaborate a little further on that each product must have a certain energy performance, whereas EnerGuide is more just a measure of that energy performance. It's not a standard per se. It's just a reading.

Dan Seguin  05:59

Thanks for the clarification. Okay, but we're seeing a trend where the residential real estate industry is moving towards multi tenant construction. In Canada, two out of three homes built today aren't multifamily. And in Ontario alone, nearly 700,000 households live in condos. Now, does this present a challenge or an opportunity for the Energy Star program?

Bert James  06:28

Well, I like to see everything as an opportunity then. So I would definitely put this into that category. I think the biggest challenge, if I may, is to kind of work within this situation where we find ourselves where we need to build more homes. I think there is a shortage of housing on the market. When we choose to build homes, we would like them to be as efficient as possible. And that's where ENERGY STAR can come in. From a certification standpoint. Many people live in multifamily homes now, or multi unit residential buildings or condo buildings. And of course, we encourage them all to use Energy Star products within their homes. But more broadly for whole buildings. We do have an Energy Star certification program for multifamily high rises in Ontario. It's a certification program for new construction that recognizes buildings that are at least 15% more efficient than those built to the provincial energy code and meet some other program requirements. But as we focus a lot on housing supply in this country, it is sometimes hard to talk about efficiency whenever we just need to get homes built. And so we you know, we see it as a challenge in terms of keeping energy efficiency in the spotlight whenever these homes get built, and also an excellent opportunity to promote the work that we do here within OEE.

Dan Seguin  07:46

Okay, the ENERGY STAR is mostly known for residential homes and appliances. But you're also in the industrial and commercial space. What programs exist to help these sectors reduce greenhouse gas emissions?

Bert James  08:02

This is a question where my answer might be long, I'm going to try and keep it as concise as I can. So there are a number of initiatives in both the commercial and industrial space. And I'll start with the commercial space energy star that has a tool called Portfolio Manager, which is a benchmarking tool. It's been with us this is actually the 10th anniversary this year is the 10th anniversary of the use of portfolio manager. And what Portfolio Manager allows you to do is measure your buildings performance as compared to other buildings that are in a similar class, it spits out a score and that score allows you to compare how your building will perform overall, in terms of reducing greenhouse gas emissions, a building that has a higher score consumes less energy and is more efficient in terms of keeping the heat in and so through the use of a portfolio manager a building owner can actually evaluate how their building performs as they construct it. But also if they were to do some retrofits to see how much better the building actually performs itself in the world of commercial residential or condo buildings. Portfolio Manager is obviously another tool that people could use but we also do have this pilot program in Ontario that does recognize buildings that are more energy efficient. So in the world of industrial players ENERGY STAR has two components. There is an energy star challenge and then a certification process. The challenge for industrial facilities is to reduce their energy consumption by 10%. Within five years, if you achieve this goal, you receive ENERGY STAR recognition and you can display the ENERGY STAR challenge for industry logo while 10% might not seem like a big achievement over the course of five years, the amount of electricity that some of the these facilities consumed is really quite substantial and a 10% drop in energy use can lead to some significant changes to the bottom line for these facilities. From a certification perspective, Natural Resources Canada recognizes the most energy efficient Canadian facilities with ENERGY STAR for industry certification. So industrial facilities located in Canada can earn the certification and display the energy star symbol. And it is done through an energy performance indicator that allows you to benchmark your facility's performance against those across Canada and the United States, it generates a score and those with the highest scores are eligible for certification.

Dan Seguin  10:28

Okay, what makes ENERGY STAR certified buildings unique?

Bert James  10:34

So ENERGY STAR certified buildings are, as I mentioned, in the residential space, the multi unit buildings they perform at least 15% better than the standard as described in the provincial energy code and ENERGY STAR certified buildings are just they are of higher energy performance. And you can feel it whenever you're in some of these buildings. And you can definitely see it through the control systems that are in place to manage energy within them. There are really some fantastic innovations happening in the building space with respect to heat and energy recovery. And these all help to improve the energy performance and ultimately improve the score through Portfolio Manager and that's what sets them apart is that they are higher performing buildings. You know, here in Ottawa, there are a couple of buildings that have recently been announced as net zero buildings whenever they are finally going to be built. That is the highest standard that we are looking at right now. But overall, you know, cut and dried, the difference between the ENERGY STAR certified building and one that is not ENERGY STAR certified is its energy performance.

Dan Seguin  11:34

Burt, are you able to unpack for listeners, what is the process to being certified?

Bert James  11:41

To be eligible for Energy Star certification, a building must earn a certain score through the ENERGY STAR Portfolio Manager access to Portfolio Manager is free. And I want to be clear that it does not require an engineering degree in order to operate it, it is something that a building manager can come in and use if it receives a certain score of 75. That means that it's operating better than at least 75% of similar buildings nationwide. So the entire process is done within the portfolio manager tool. Once you register for an account, you benchmark your building by using metered energy data. It's asking, you know, building operators for the data that they already have, which can be entered into the tool manually, or in some cases that can actually be automatically uploaded into the tool. Once you obtain your score. If it is 75 or higher, then you can submit an online certification application, have it verified by a licensed professional and then submit it to Natural Resources Canada, and then the last step for us is just to review that application. And if it is certified, the building receives an ENERGY STAR deckle to display on the building and also gets listed on in NRcan's online registry.

Dan Seguin  12:50

Now I'm curious about your signature program, the Canada Greener Homes Grant. What can you tell us about it, and how retrofit factors into your work?

Bert James  13:02

So the Canada Greener Homes Grant was launched in 2021. And I think in government time, that still makes it a relatively new program. It is obviously a program to incentivize home energy retrofits in the residential space across Canada. You know, the program itself was designed to improve the energy performance of home so there is a focus on improving the building envelope and also some of the equipment that exists within the home. When I say building envelope, I don't just mean you know the walls I also mean the windows and doors. And as it relates to energy star to be eligible for one of the grants, consumers or homeowners must install ENERGY STAR certified products into those spaces. There's also opportunities to add insulation to swap out furnaces for heat pumps and there are other aspects. So the retrofitting of homes is a very important factor for us as we work towards, you know, a net zero economy by 2050. The building sector accounts for a significant percentage of Canada's greenhouse gas emissions primarily related to space and water heating and retrofitting those buildings is an essential component of how we get to net zero energy star certainly plays a role in in supporting homeowners by putting high performing products in and ultimately can help us down the road of consuming less energy and reducing greenhouse gas emissions in cases where if you are heating with a natural gas furnace, having high efficiency Windows keeps that he didn't and you will burn less gas overall and reduce your emissions associated with it.

Dan Seguin  14:40

Bert, more and more municipalities and communities are looking for ways to reduce costs and greenhouse gas emissions. What is the ENERGY STAR Portfolio Manager and who is the target audience?

Bert James  14:55

So the Portfolio Manager is a free tool you know, it's run by the United States Ba, they are the ones that the custodians of the tool can have certainly modified the tool, you know, for our own context, the target audience for Portfolio Manager are building operators. And so they are the people who have access to the water consumption, the energy consumption, waste generation, all of those things come into the portfolio manager tool, and we, you know, we target our work towards, towards the building operators and the building managers to get their information into it, it is really quite something but we have more than 40% of all commercial space across Canada is already found in the portfolio manager tool, and that date that is increasing all the time. And we have some good news stories from provinces, municipalities who are actually mandating the use of the tool in order to demonstrate energy performance in their jurisdictions. So like I said, the tool itself is free, it is quite easy to use, and but it is targeted towards the people who actually have access to that information about how a building currently performs and how it operates.

Dan Seguin  16:07

That's great, Bert. Now how does the federal budgets focus on energy and decarbonisation, the economy affects your work?

Bert James  16:09

Well, it is my work in many ways. I mean, energy efficiency is a central component of how we get to net zero by 2050. I like to think that there are three pillars to this : decarbonisation, which is the actual, you know, elimination of fossil fuel build burning devices. There is electrification, which is the conversion of certain things to electricity from a fossil fuel device, but then there's also energy efficiency. And so the less energy that we can use in order to operate, you know, a building an industrial facility or a product to the easier it is to to electrify that, and ultimately here in the Office of Energy Efficiency, that's, that's our goal, we want people to use high performing devices, we have many success stories around this, you know, we the efficiency of a refrigerator built in 2023 is, you know, many multiples ahead of of a refrigerator built, you know, 25 or 30 years ago. Similarly, incandescent light bulbs are actually getting harder and harder to find, and at some point in time, they will likely be regulated out of existence. So you know, the energy is the lifeblood of our economy, how we use that energy and the efficiency with which we use that energy is, I think, going to be a major indicator of our success as we move towards a full decarbonisation of the economy and reducing our emissions from coast to coast.

Dan Seguin  17:47

Now has the main social driver to buy Energy STAR shifted from energy saving, to, let's say, planet saving?

Bert James  17:56

That's a very good question. And I would say, our focus is still on saving energy, all energy has a cost. And if we can reduce the amount of energy that we consume, then ultimately we are going to save some money along the way. In Canada, we have a very clean electricity generation grid. And so but there are certain jurisdictions where even within this country where we still burn fossil fuels in order to generate electricity, if we can consume less energy, we will burn less fossil fuels in those jurisdictions. But I would say that the focus for the Energy Star program remains on remaining within energy performance and saving money and through the savings of energy, ultimately, are we going to be saving the planet along the way, I'd like to think that we are contributing positively in that way. But for us here, the focus has always been on just increasing the efficiency of the products that we are responsible for and helping Canadians make smart decisions with respect to where they live, work and play.

Dan Seguin  19:03

Got a follow up question for you, Bert. What trends are you seeing and what are you learning from consumers through their purchasing decisions?

Bert James  19:12

We are seeing I mean, I think greener homes are an excellent example. To go back to that question. We have seen nearly a doubling of program participation in energy star as a result of the incentives that are available through the greener homes grant. So people speak with their wallet sometimes, and by putting Energy Star products into greener homes, we've seen a significant uptick in the purchasing of fenestration products or windows and doors within the ENERGY STAR space. You know, we are are very proud of what we've done in the lighting space in particular, because we you know, ENERGY STAR lighting at one point in time was it was LED lighting and I think before that it might have there might have been some other model But we have largely moved away from incandescent lighting entirely. So, you know, we see people who are interested in purchasing a product, the concern that we tend to hear from Canadians is around cost differential. So they might not want to purchase a product, even if it's going to save them energy if it costs more money. And this is where I really love the Energy Star program. Because if you're buying a ceiling fan, there's no difference in cost between an ENERGY STAR ceiling fan and another ceiling fan. And this is the same thing across products like televisions, computer monitors. And so people don't need much of a push in order to buy a more efficient product. The concern that they have is obviously if there is a cost differential, this becomes a bit more of a pressing concern whenever we start to talk about housing, because obviously we want people to buy high performance housing. But there's a limit to how much more people are going to be willing to pay for a high performing house as compared to one that might not be an ENERGY STAR certified new home.

Dan Seguin  21:04

Okay, Burt, what role does ENERGY STAR have in achieving Canada's net zero emissions by 2050?

Bert James  21:15

Well, I can give you the most recent numbers that I have in 2022. Alone, ENERGY STAR certified products saved enough energy to power over 320,000 homes for a year or the equivalent of removing 680,000 cars from the road. Improving energy efficiency contributes firsthand to reducing greenhouse gas emissions and is an important part of Canada's national approach to addressing climate change. The program supports Canadians in reducing energy consumption and improves efficiency across multiple sectors of the economy. The program assumes a multi pronged approach to advancing these environmental objectives from manufacturing, distribution and purchasing, obviously, as we have discussed residential housing both single family homes and multi unit homes promoting high efficiency and high efficiency performance in the commercial and institutional buildings and challenging industry to push efficiency even further. So I think ENERGY STAR absolutely has a role to play. It is an aspirational standard. But you know, through program participation, and through the work that we do with our various stakeholder groups, we have the power to leverage that brand to influence people to make good purchasing decisions that will ultimately lead them to, you know, reduce their energy consumption, reduce their greenhouse gas emissions, and and hopefully get us towards net zero by 2050.

Dan Seguin  22:37

Now, let's move on from role to goals. What are some of your own internal goals with respect to net zero?

Bert James  22:47

Well, you know, here in the Office of Energy Efficiency, Net Zero is sort of our shining star, it's the one that we're trying to work towards, we continue to push standards higher and hire on the regulatory side of things. To make products more and more efficient. Obviously, we can't push too far too fast. Because sometimes the products just don't exist to have an energy performance that we know where they need to be. And so we are constantly seeking opportunities to identify product types to improve the standards overall. I know we work in close and close contact with the US EPA who are developing new standards for ENERGY STAR for new products that are coming ahead. And so what we want to do is, is just, we want to do everything that we can to make sure that energy efficiency stays front of mind as we are making purchasing purchasing decisions that we're providing information to people about the importance of of energy efficiency, and really supporting what is a robust labor market for energy efficiency as well, you know, the greener homes, you know, to go back to that has really helped to incentivize the retrofit market with a focus on energy efficiency, I think we we should be very proud of jobs that are created the economic activity that gets created out of that because the environment and the economy are not distinct things, more and more they are becoming one of the same in terms of you know, addressing environmental challenges are is an excellent economic opportunity. And I think ENERGY STAR has a role to play in that space.

Dan Seguin  24:25

Okay, time for a little bragging bird. What are some of Energy STARS or the office of Energy's efficiencies greatest accomplishments?

Bert James  24:35

Well, I'll start with ENERGY STAR. Certainly, there are a couple of things that I wanted to point out too. One is that we will be sunsetting the ENERGY STAR requirements for most lighting products. This is to pat ourselves on the back Mission Accomplished story we brought in the ENERGY STAR standard, which was led lights and that standard has what was originally aspirational has now become the industry standard. And we are going to be decommissioning the ENERGY STAR standard because most products are built to it anyways, the overwhelming majority of lighting products that you find meet that standard. And so that's a very good news story for us. Similarly, the EPA has indicated that we will be decommissioning standards related to the performance of fossil fuel devices and burning devices such as furnaces or hot water heaters, because the technology for electric electricity or electric heating and cooling as well as electric water heating have advanced to a point where, you know, our focus is going to become improving that energy performance and, and getting away from consideration around fossil fuels in the world of commercial buildings. Another great story for energy portfolio managers, as I mentioned, is that approximately 45% of commercial buildings by floor space are benchmarked through this through the Portfolio Manager tool, you know, the more that we can get into Portfolio Manager, it's a bit of a game, right? So for building operators, you know, whether you are operating a school or a hospital, you know, a medical clinic, you can compare your facilities, energy performance against other facilities. And the more that we can put into Portfolio Manager, the better we understand the performance of our building stock and look at ways to that we can ultimately improve if I look at the Office of Energy Efficiency, certainly, you know, we've launched a number of very successful programs over the course of the years greener Homes has issued hundreds of millions of dollars worth of grants already, but something that I would like to to advocate for is that, you know, OEE also plays a key role of as regulator, so we have saved a lot of energy, and we've phased out some poor performing products such as light bulbs, but we use our regulatory role to support building operators to support industry to support manufacturers, and we have a couple of very well known products in enter guide, both the inner guide that shows up on your appliances and enter guide for houses. These are very well known and web and highly recognized programs. And nothing beats brand recognition whenever it comes to programs such as this.

Dan Seguin  27:13

Lastly, Burt, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready?

Bert James  27:21

Okay, I guess I'm ready as ready as I'll ever be. Yes.

Dan Seguin  27:25

So what are you reading right now?

Bert James  27:28

So I have to confess, Dan, that outside of work, I'm not a big reader. I tend to listen to podcasts. I'm an auditory learner. And so I love the podcast medium, what I'm listening to on podcasts right now, and a couple of things. I love current affairs. And so I listened to Current Affairs podcast quite a bit. Most recently, I, you know, kind of dived into a couple of different topics related to the use of artificial intelligence. And one that is, you know, I would say more of a guilty pleasure than anything else, which is just listening to interminable amounts of sports podcasts. So I, so I read all day, every day for work. And whenever I get to the end of my work day, I tend to turn that skill in my brain off and I tend to listen more than read.

Dan Seguin  28:17

What would you name your boat if you had one? Or maybe you do have one?

Bert James  28:21

I do have a boat. It is a canoe and the canoe’s name is Worth My While.

Dan Seguin  28:29

Who is someone that you truly admire, Bert?

Bert James  28:32

Well, the first person that comes to mind is my mother. Of course, I am a mama's boy, if you can't tell from that statement. My mother is 80 years old, and could write a book on how to fit 25 hours into your day. She is quite incredible. You know, Dan, just to just take a step back, I work with the smartest group of people I've ever known right now. And I look around me and, you know, not just within the management community that I'm part of, but people up and down throughout this organization, I really admire their commitment to the organization, their commitment to the work that they do, and the dedication that they show. So I feel very fortunate to be a public servant, and particularly in the role that I'm in right now just to be surrounded by experts in their fields, both technical experts, policy experts and just leaders in the truest sense of the word. And those are the so if I had to say pick anyone to admire would probably be them.

Dan Seguin  29:30

Now, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?

Bert James  29:35

Well, I actually had - and you can tell me after the fact that this is something that I am not allowed to talk about on the podcast - but I had something truly amazing happen to me about a week and a half ago. I was in Algonquin Park, and I was fishing and I ended up catching a fish and he decided that we were going to have it for lunch. And so in the process of cleaning a fish, I opened it up and a live baby snapping turtle fell out of its belly. And it was the most amazing circumstance that I think I've ever been part of. And if that's not a podcast, suitable material, I've got lots of other experiences. But I cannot get over how magical it was that I happened to be on that beach at that time and to liberate it. So we named the turtle Lucky. And we put the turtle into a safe space for a little while, then we went back and checked on him for a day or so. And then the turtle had disappeared and had gone off. We assumed greener pastures, but that is the closest thing to magic that I have ever experienced. You know, but if that's not a podcast, suitable material, I've got another example for you.

Dan Seguin  30:49

Okay, now, as a result of the pandemic, many of us are guilty of watching a lot more Netflix and TV. What is your favorite movie or show?

Bert James  31:01

So similar to my answer about what I am reading, I don't tend to watch a lot. I spend my day in front of screens and a good portion of my day on camera leading meetings, et cetera. The most recent Netflix show that I really got into was Ozark which was, which was a pretty, you know, dark and brooding show at times. But I found it quite compelling in terms of television. I tend to stick to sporting events, most of the time. That's where my interest lies. It's not that I don't enjoy television. It's just that for some reason, sitting in front of yet another screen, whenever I've spent a good portion of my day in front of screens, doesn't really resonate with me.

Dan Seguin  31:48

Lastly, what's exciting you about your industry right now, Bert?

Bert James  31:53

Well, I think there is an increasing amount of media attention being paid to energy efficiency, you know, not just from a technological perspective, because there's quite a bit of information in the news right now about heat pumps and the possibilities that heat pumps bring to reducing greenhouse gas emissions. What I think is really exciting about it is that it feels somewhat like a coming of age moment in that the world of energy efficiency has been creating jobs for decades. But more and more, I think people are starting to recognize the potential that this sector has from a research and development angle, you know, the potential job opportunities that it creates, and both the public and social benefits that come with energy efficiency as well. And so there does seem to be a recognition of what energy efficiency can bring to the economy. And I love talking about my work, not just with you with anyone who will listen, and I really feel like we are at a turning point, just because of, you know, some of the environmental challenges. I think climate change being the challenge of our generation, and just looking at the enormous potential that exists within this sector to make life better, measurably better for Canadians and for people around the world.

Dan Seguin  33:18

If our listeners want to learn more about you or your organization, how can they connect?

Bert James  33:23

So if you're looking for information about ENERGY STAR, if you go search online for ENERGY STAR Canada will bring you directly to our web presence. If you're looking for more information about the Office of Energy Efficiency, I would counsel people to do the same. I don't often direct people to our website. It's not something that you know, is going to wow you but there is a great amount of information in there really quite relevant information. It can help people find incentive programs within their own jurisdictions. It can help people learn about the products that they want to buy or are considering buying. And it can help greatly from an education standpoint to help people learn about the benefits of energy efficiency in their home and at their office.

Dan Seguin  34:08

Well Burt, this is it, we've reached the end of another episode of the Think Energy podcasts. Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you have a lot of fun.

Bert James  34:18

I did. I did. How should I say this? It's nice to be on the other side of the speaker. I listen to a lot of podcasts, yours included, and I love to inform myself in this way and whatever I can do to promote my work, which I am intensely proud of. I am happy to do so.

Dan Seguin  34:34

Cheers. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.