Think Energy

Embracing energy independence with OREC

Feb 5, 2024

Small-scale technologies like solar panels and on-site battery storage are empowering homeowners, businesses, and entire communities to become more energy independent. In this episode, we talk with Dick Bakker, Director of the Ottawa Renewable Energy Co-operative (OREC), about his personal switch to solar power, OREC’s role as an advocate for renewable energy, and more.

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Dan Seguin  00:06

This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. In today's era, there is a growing desire among residents to take charge of their energy consumption not only to manage costs, but also to actively generate their own power. Traditionally, electricity has been generated at large power plants and transmitted over extensive distances to homes and businesses, leaving consumers with little influence over the source of their electricity. However, advancements in small scale technologies such as solar panels and onsite battery storage are empowering homeowners, businesses, and entire communities to become energy self-sufficient. In addition to these technologies, the integration of smart thermostats, vehicle to grid charging stations and heat pumps is further reshaping the dialogue around energy generation, conservation, and being active participants in an emission free future. Today, Canadians have the opportunity to take control of virtually every aspect of their energy consumption and interaction. The landscape of energy is evolving, putting the power back into the hands of individuals and communities alike. So here's today's big question. What role will innovative technologies and decentralized energy solutions play in shaping the future energy independence for individuals and communities? Joining us today is Dick Bakker, an Ottawa area homeowner that recently published an article about his experience installing a solar panel system on his home. Dick is also the director of an auto renewable energy cooperative, so brings a unique perspective on other small scale renewable projects his organization has been involved in. Dick, welcome to the show.

Dick Bakker  02:34

Thank you very much.

Dan Seguin  02:36

Now, you recently published an article about the process of installing solar panels on your home. What inspired you and your family to make the switch to solar power? And why did you decide to share your experience in this article,

Dick Bakker  02:52

It was a long process, I actually had to go back to 98 when the ice storm hit Eastern, Northeastern the US and Canada. At that time, I was working in the internet equipment business. And I watched the world stop and became fascinated with how it happened. And that caused a restart and an interest in energy that I had from the 70s during the oil crisis. And I found the electricity grid to be very similar to the telecom industry, then in oh three. So in 98, we were out of power here for seven days. People across the road had power, so we're okay, but we just didn't have power in our house. We just live with them. Then in Oh, three the trees in Ohio shut down North America again. And I couldn't believe that that could happen again. But at that time, Ontario was the last jurisdiction in North America to come back on stream fully. It took us almost four weeks for the whole province to come back. But Quebec was lit up okay. And they actually had bars on the hunt in the hall side looking at the lights going off in Ontario. But I asked myself why the heck is this. And I realized very quickly that it was because of our big nuclear plants. They're so big, and so rigid. The premier at the time couldn't get the citizens of Ontario to turn off their air conditioning units because of the heatwave we were in. And Quebec was unaffected. Well, why? And I learned it is the centralized nature of Ontario's power grid, and the lack of demand management that we have here. Because of that, anyway, I became fascinated with electricity regulations, and all of that. And that eventually led to me becoming part of the Ottawa renewable energy cooperative, where I learned through hard knocks the problems of the electricity system, the predatory protective regulations, and this new idea called distributed energy resources. Anyway, long and short, I finally realized that we needed to do something at home. And that came about eventually to us putting solar on the house when certain regulations changed. I wrote the article so that I could share my experiences of how the Ontario electricity system works, what we can do about it, and I wrote it for the local community newspaper, the VISTAs, I live in Alta Vista. And through my work at Oreck and my own interests in this house and making it more efficient and cheaper to run, I learned an awful lot and that information should be spread, I thought, okay, Dick,

Dan Seguin  05:24

In your article, you mentioned the challenges you and your neighbors face during the durational storm that hit Ottawa in 2022. And the tornado in 2018. How did these experiences influence your decision to invest in solar and other distributed energy resources specifically?

Dick Bakker  05:46

Well, specific? A lot. They were instrumental. So I've lived in this house for 30 years and Alta Vista, we've been out of power for longer than five days, four times. In the 98 ice storm, the 2003 trees in Ohio that fell over and shut down North America, 2018 Tornado, and the 2022 Derecho. And then there was also another big ice storm in the spring of 23. But we'll leave that aside, it didn't affect us too much. So after the 2022 Derecho, my neighbor and I were discussing what had happened, were both out for 10 days, and he was beside himself because he didn't have anywhere to go. They want to get off the grid completely. And he knew I was involved in the Ottawa, renewable energy cooperative, or Rec. And I told him, You can't go off grid because it's not worthwhile. It's not effective, you're getting a subsidized price of electricity, which didn't, he didn't like hearing that. But I said, you're just we're just not paying enough for our electricity. We're getting it so cheap, it doesn't make sense to put solar on your roof. Besides, we both had trees in our cell site. So that was then I explained to him the centralized nature of the grid. 60% of our power comes from three nuclear sites. Bruce Darlington and Pickering. Pickering being 14%. The pension funds like to invest in big centralized power plants, big shiny objects that the world can see. And the long lines that bring the power from way over there to our little corner is like a cash stream that the incumbents want to keep. They're not interested in distributed energy resources, or D are spread around. But that's where we should be going that time in 2022. Knowing what I knew of the regulations and the orientation of the provincial government, I couldn't see ever having the potential to put solar on your house. Sorry, I couldn't see the financial justification of putting solar on the house. And on top of that, the present government is subsidizing our electricity bills to the tune of 7 billion a year five and a half billion of that is going to general subsidies to the middle class and upper class not targeted to the poor. So at some point that's going to rise. The rating agencies will correct that by threatening to downgrade Ontario's credit rating but all that to say it's still subsidized, so it's not worth putting it on. Then in 2023, January, the Ontario government came out with some changes and started encouraging net metering and local generation.

Dan Seguin  08:28

Okay, now, did you also discuss the changing landscape of Ontario's electricity rules, specifically mentioning the Ontario Energy Boards directive in 2023? What changed that, in your opinion, helped to facilitate the adoption of solar power and what challenges still exist for homeowners today?

Dick Bakker  08:51

Thanks, Dan. That directive from the Ontario Energy Board and 23 was was a game changer for the province. I don't think they realize what potential they unleash them. So from 2018 When the Conservative government took power, they had a big grid only mentality. They wanted big power plants and long lines to deliver the power to the homes and the rules around net metering, which is the only way you can put solar on your house and stay connected to the grid. That's where you generate power, consume it yourself, and trade credits for your over summer for your summer overproduction for your winter consumption or purchases from the grid. So that pricing scheme was basically rigged against the homeowner because homeowners were forced to go to the tiered pricing scheme. So just on that situation, and up until 2023. Net metering wasn't very cost effective because of the pricing, but it could work. Technically, the grid acts as a battery so you're never out of power. So that rule kept me way from thinking of solar on my house. Also, I had trees to the south of the house. So the best place to put the solar panels wouldn't be productive. I don't want to cut the trees down, because that keeps my air conditioning costs low, and they're nice. But then in 23, the province changed the rules around net metering, and came up with an ultra low overnight rate. So the key thing about net metering, they said the local distribution companies would have to give the net metering customer the option to pick their rate class. So you go to a time of use rate if you wish. And then you get value for your time value of electricity. So if you're producing an high rate, you get the high rate in your credits. Okay, so that's good, then they came up with an ultra low overnight time of use rate, third rate class to encourage every user to charge at night, not during the evening dinnertime when everybody's turning on lights and eaters and all their devices. So they want to reduce consumption during the peak hour, and increase consumption at the low hour. And if you produce solar during the four to 9pm, period at 28 cents, that's what you pay, you get credits for 28 cents, that is much better economics for the homeowner, the end user and the solar producer. That's when I realized that my house was actually ideal because I've got a very low sloped roof. The South Side is full of trees, but the north side is clear. And the North side's going to produce more during the four to eight o'clock pm in the summertime at 28 cents. So one hour of that can offset 10 hours at the 2.8 cents for the low rate. So that was one thing. The other thing is I have an EV. We have heat pumps. We just installed a heat pump water heater, so I can time shift my consumption to the low overnight rate, I think it's pretty good. I still think the cost of electricity is going to rise more. So my return on investment is only going to improve because putting all of this in is an insurance policy against that rising cost of electricity. You also asked what are the continuing challenges? The challenges for solar? on the residential side are buildings and trees. How's the building built? Which way are the roofs pointing? Where are the trees? What kind of shading do they throw? But the good thing is that in the summertime, the sun is very high in Canada, so the sun will come straight down more or less. And in the wintertime when there's no snow on your roof. Or even if there's a little bit of snow on the roof. Solar production is marginally better because it's cold. So the physics is better. So there's still lots of opportunity for solar even in this cold northern climate. The challenges are of course buildings and trees to a certain point the supply chain there aren't enough installers, electricians to do all the work that should be done can be done hydro Ottawa, a staff just to get the installations done the upgrades for the grid. But hydro Ottawa needs Ottawa residents to spend this money on their own Diyar so that you can meet your new targets for the year. So I think people who do this on their own are doing it for themselves, but indirectly they're doing it for the betterment of the overall grid, driving down the cost of electricity. Solar does not drive up the cost of electricity when producing nuclear plants drives up the cost of electricity. Okay.

Dan Seguin  13:40

Could you maybe provide more details on the cost and capacity of your solar panel system? What were the economic aspects of your investment, including any government incentives or rebates that may have influenced your decision?

Dick Bakker  13:56

So in my specific installation, I have 37 panels in total. 24 of them are on the north slope and 13 panels on the south slope. So total DC kilowatt of 14.43. That's going through a nine kilowatt inverter. I have no panels on the south slope because there are three big trees there. If I had panels there, it would probably be a third smaller for the same generation. So over 12 months, I expect to generate about 10,246 kilowatt hours. That's 78% of 2020 two's consumption and my electricity consumption includes 90% of our driving because I have an Eevee and a plug in hybrid Evie 90% of our driving 100% of our cooling 40% of our heating a little more than 40% this year because it's a warm winter and 100% of our lights and appliances. So I've got a gas station on my roof and I've got a furnace on my roof effectively because of the ultra low overnight time of use rate. I am confident that with time shifting I can cover 100% of my electricity purchases, not my connection charges 100% of my electricity cost with something like 78% of my electricity kilowatts, because of the time shifting between ultra low and peak rate, the overall cost was $30,478 for the equipment, plus HST electricity upgrade to 200 amp service, some internal wiring changes, and I reached angled under the panels on the north and east, I didn't do the South because it doesn't quite need it effectively, I future proof my house for 30 plus years of electricity, I've given myself 30 years plus of electricity, price insurance and forced savings. And I predict that the credit rating agencies at some point will force the province to reduce the subsidies we're giving to the middle and the upper class and electricity costs. And that'll drive up the electricity rates a little bit, not massively, and I'll be protected from that. or whoever's living here because I'm getting old. So I think the house value of homes that have solar are going to hold their value better than a new kitchen cabinet or a new, new whatever that the new owner pulls out and replaces, you know, you're not going to be replacing solar on a roof if it's reducing your utility bills.

Dan Seguin  16:23

Okay, now our batteries, shifting your energy use away from daytime usage, or other distributed energy resources a consideration?

Dick Bakker  16:33

Well, that's a very good question, because the one thing I haven't done in the house yet is put a battery and a disconnect Island. And that's the next thing I'm going to look at during the summertime, I do these things one at a time to make sure they work and see how they operate. So the next thing will be a battery probably in the garage, if it's appropriate. And the not sure the proper technical term islanding device to allow me to operate separate from the grid. And if I ever buy another car, it'll be an Eevee with to a charging, so that I'll be able to charge my house and the battery over the course of the year, so the battery will be there for a disaster. But over the course of the year, I'll be able to draw power from the solar on the roof, and from the grid at the low rate stored and discharge it to the grid during the peak rate. So that makes my neighbor's grid a little more resilient. And in a crisis, I can be Island as opposed to the noisy gas generators that are sitting around my neighborhood.

Dan Seguin  17:37

Shifting gears a bit now as the director of the auto renewable energy cooperatives since its creation in 2009. Can you share how it works? And what are some of the projects that your coop has built?

Dick Bakker  17:54

Sure, certainly. So OREC is a for profit, renewable energy Co Op that enables residents of Ottawa to be restricted to Ontario by certain rules that I won't get into. So it allows residents of Ottawa and mostly Eastern Ontario but Ontario to benefit from distributed energy resources in their own region, we build our own renewable energy generation. Presently, solar and wind, energy conservation assets, commercial building, lighting installation, retrofit projects that keep the electrons jobs and profits local. So we have 22 solar systems in place now, most of them or the feed in tariff contracts. Three of them are net metering projects, one at the Museum of Science and Tech, two at the French Catholic High School Board, Mere Blue and Paul Desmarais. And then 18 other feed in tariff contracts where we have a contract to sell the power to the grid. At a net metering project. We sell the power to the building. Then we also have two wind projects down in southwestern Ontario and three energy retrofit projects. We had five but two of them have finished their contractor. So the solar projects are on housing coops, burns, schools, museums, factories, and two of them are I'd say medium sized ground mounts, 500 kilowatt ground mounts, the two wind projects. One is a 2.3 megawatt project at Tiverton, just outside of the Bruce nuclear plant and a little funny story I like to tell everyone is that the Bruce nuclear plant doesn't supply power to the neighborhood. All the electricity from Bruce nuclear goes to Toronto on the transmission lines because they connect it to the distribution grid and Temperton that blows all the light bulbs so they feed Toronto and then it trickles all the way back to Tim Burton. The wind project that we have outside of Tim Burton is a standalone turbine and it feeds the distribution grid. So should heaven forbid should Bruce nuclear go down? Some of the people will have electricity coming from our wind turbine. The people that are working at Bruce nuclear will have power at home, not because of the nuclear plant. The second wind turbine is an 800 kilowatt project in Zurich directly south of there. That's a wonderful area for wind. Most of the wind projects in that area are large projects owned by American pension funds, feeding Toronto, all of the power is going on the transmission lines. So getting back to Oh, Rick in general. So we have solar wind and lighting retrofits at the IRA center, condo, and housing coops. All of our projects are revenue generating with proven technologies and solid counterparties. So pretty comfortable with the security of those assets. The board is made up of pretty experienced people, engineers, lawyers, business development, accountants comms people. I'm a bit of a generalist. But I have worked in telecom and technical fields my whole life, not as an engineer, we have 980 members, 500 of them, about half of them have invested over $11 million in equity and debt in our project since we started. And we've paid dividends every year since 2013. When our first project came online, we had repaid to our members over 3.5 million in dividends, interest and capital repayment with very little outside debt, we'd rather pair members than banks, no offense banks, but we want to keep the money within the family within the community. Our main function is to act as an investment cooperative for our members. So we spend most of our time looking for projects to build and or buy, and then raise the community capital to build, operate, repeat, get more projects, raise more capital, pay out the dividends and capital. But we do have to spend an awful lot of money on advocacy work to change the regulations, or maintain whatever regulations are, to promote distributed energy resources of all types. But the second core function that we want to do more of is utilize the knowledge of our 1000 members and create them. It's happening already organically, but we want to have more regular information sessions between our members who are doing things like I just did. We have the largest concentration of any 1000 People in the Ottawa Valley in the province. I think of people who have D er installed in their homes. So we have a lot of end users, battery users, people with knowledge of heat pumps and stuff like that. So we are a group of friends with knowledge of the ER.

Dan Seguin  22:34

Okay now, Dick, when did things really take off with the co-op? And are members seeing dividends?

Dick Bakker  22:42

Well, that's a good question. Because the first offering that we raised was in 2012. And we didn't know how it was going to go, it actually went better than we expected, our minimum requirement was to raise half a million dollars. And in those nine weeks that we had, we raised $970,000, and more cash than we actually needed for what we had to do. And ever since then, we've we're now on our 10th Raise, each raise has gone better than expected. We've always raised more cash than we had projects at that time. So for a period there, we were building up too much cash and didn't have enough projects for them. So projects come more harder than the money or the members, the membership has grown very well. And the equity in the cooperative has been very good. And I'm also proud to say that we've paid dividends every year, since 2013. In the last couple of years, it's been 4%. We'd like it to be higher, but we've had to build everything from scratch without any outside cash. We've just started our latest raise, it's going to close on August 28, I believe. And we're looking for new members with new equity, and that equity can be RRSP or TFSA. It's an investment in the portfolio of 27 existing projects, and the new projects that we're going to be building in the coming year.

Dan Seguin  24:11

Now, let's talk about the changing relationship between electricity consumers and producers. How do you see this evolving in the coming years? And what role do you think individuals and communities will play in the broader energy transition?

Dick Bakker  24:32

This is going to be the biggest change in our society in the coming years. I think we're going to move from being ratepayers with very little agency beyond paying our bills and turning off lights to prosumers or producer consumers who have the ability to produce electricity for conservation, which is what I'm doing or for profit and or for profit when the regulations in Ontario Are you allow hydro Ottawa to buy excess power from homeowners? Right now you can't. So we'll be able to conserve and profit from our assets on our roof. And we'll also be able to actively manage our consumption, again for conservation and profit. So right now we're able to reduce our demand and shift our demand from peak load to low load. But in the future, I'm pretty sure that Ontario will follow California and New York and allow for aggressive demand response programs. And what we'd like to do at some point in the future, as OREC is allow our members to pool their batteries and solar panels and air conditioners, so that we can turn down consumption as the grid gets choked or or constrained. So we just saw what happened in Alberta, they had no demand management program, they turned down some gas plants for renovation in the peak of winter, and then they got hit with a big demand. During a cold period. The only way they got out of their problem was begging their customers to turn down their home heating systems. The citizens responded, but the downtown office towers left their lights on all night. That's absurd. So going forward, I think that the LDCs will be paying people to turn down their demand, because we need the grid to be balanced. We don't need excess generation or excess demand or under demand, we need everything balanced. So a megawatt is as good as a megawatt.

Dan Seguin  26:52

Okay, thank you for that, in your opinion now. What is the city or province doing well, and what improvements need to be made? Now you gotta behave?

Dick Bakker  27:04

I'll try to behave. How long do we have? I don't want to rant. But it's hard not to. On the city site. If there's a climate emergency act like there is one, people should not be buying coffee from an idling car. Housing is energy, stopping natural gas expansion. The Better Homes program is a wonderful program of the city. Because it addresses the upfront costs of retrofitting and DTR and solar and all those things. It ties that cost to a 20 year loan fixed to the House tax bill, not to the person. I'm 68. I may not be in this house for 10 years, I tend to be here longer, but my intention and reality may be different. So we need to have the cost of long term assets spread over years. The Better Homes program says that the city should be encouraging solar and small wind for resilience purposes. Every large group should have solar and there should be wind turbines scattered throughout Eastern Ontario, not just in rural areas in batches of 50. There should be a couple of wind turbines in urban Ottawa with the proper setbacks. That's the city in the province. Every month Ontario's paying out $1.3 billion in gasoline and diesel costs. There's lots of money for the energy transition. You just have to shift it around. Let the nuclear plants run their course, don't shut them down early, but don't pour money down a sinkhole. We just announced today Pickering expansion, well Pickering retrofit, it's the oldest nuclear plant in North America. The province is in a pickle because they know the nukes will be late. The small modular reactors aren't small modular. They are big reactors, they can only go on the transmission lines. That demand is all over the province at the end of the distribution lines where we live and work and EVs and heat pumps are so just let the nuclear plants slow down or wear out. The Donsky Report to the Independent Electricity systems operator said the lowest cost of new energy in the provinces D er of all types. It's just regulations that are stopping it and it makes the province more resilient. So the province can have every city have a similar program to Otto as the Better Homes program. Secondly, remove the Ontario electricity rebate that's putting $5.5 million dollars of taxpayer money into the pockets of people who leave their lights on and put that money instead in the distribution lines allow every kind of virtual net metering in the province especially community solar gardens so that citizens could own the solar on a swimming pool hockey rink. Any facility that is used for a disaster recovery facility should be generating power day to day and then have the ability to island in a crisis and resilience See should be the first order of the electricity grid, proper costs but resiliency and localized and generally liberalize the rules around generation and distribution. Okay,

Dan Seguin  30:10

Does the co-op or its members have an objective to promote or advocate for renewable energy and distributed energy resources in the community or with local governments? Yes,

Dick Bakker  30:23

In every way, as a co op, and with other coops for community scale projects, 100 kilowatt to one or two megawatt is the size of projects that is natural for us. That's the kind of thing that citizens are going to be interested in and seeing and owning, but we are going to work in the bigger projects on the transmission side, but we're advocating for that all the time, spend a lot more time helping our members to act as individuals with information and examples, the whole idea of friends with knowledge to get them to put in their own home systems. So yes, we spend way too much time advocating on behalf of the ER.

Dan Seguin  31:03

Okay, now, are you seeing your co-op's focus areas reflected in government policy, either municipally or provincially? How do you ensure your voices are heard?

Dick Bakker  31:17

We're starting to see a focus on D er, but I'm not yet seeing action, hard, hard action on the ER except for a few exceptions. Hydro Ottawa with the IESO is right now focused on solar DERs as a conservation measure, there's a bunch of regulations around it. I won't get into that right now. So that's good. And the dusky report and the ultra low time of use rate, those are all very good things. But today, they've just announced the massive expenditure on Pickering, which locks us further into the centralized focus of the province. The orientation of all electricity grids is to build big things far away that will break at some point. We're here in Ottawa, and we see all these federal buildings, there's only a few of them that have sold on them. The federal government doesn't do a good job of buying from small organizations like us. So we've had lots of discussions with the feds, but they want to do massive things that the reporters can write about. We're advocating as ourselves and with other coops nationally and provincially in every province, because that's where electricity and Co Op law resides. And we have formed a national association called the Community Energy cooperatives Canada, which is based in Saskatoon right now and has 25 coops from across the country. The fastest growing area of renewable energy coops in Canada is Alberta because they have the most liberalized power grid. So that'll be our national voice. But it'll be a voice at the federal and more importantly, at the provincial level, because that's where electricity lives. We work a lot with the European res Co Op, who have been very successful in Europe to get the EU to pass a directive that says every citizen of the EU has the right to own, operate, store, share, and save their own renewable electricity. So if we get the federal government to encourage that, all they can do is bribe, encourage and embarrass the provinces. If we could get the federal government to pass a directive like that. That's EU directive 2018 -201. If anybody's interested, we get that kind of directive from the federal government. That'll put pressure and embarrassment on the provinces to loosen up their grids. Alberta and Nova Scotia have moved the furthest along in this area, Ontario and Quebec and Manitoba and Saskatchewan are the big laggards but we have to move that way and oh wreck with our friends in the other coops can push that. We're all voters. We're all voting with our money and our ballots, and the last thing, banks will notice the difference.

Dan Seguin  34:03

Lastly, Dick, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions.Are you ready?

Dick Bakker  34:12

Yes, sir.

Dan Seguin  34:13

Okay, what are you reading right now?

Dick Bakker  34:16

Well, two books, one is called treeing energy by Bill Nussey. It's all about the wonderful economics of Home DER technologies. And the other is by my favorite author Guy Vanderhaeghe, August Into Winter. And not a book but fascinating about Saskatchewan and rural Saskatchewan and Manitoba crime scene set in 39. With the Spanish Civil War in the coming world war two is the backdrop. It's great.

Dan Seguin  34:44

What would you name your boat if you had one? Or do you have one?

Dick Bakker  34:47

There ain't no easy road. Those are the words of a song I love called Jericho by Fred Eagle Smith. My wife gave me a paddle with this phrase on it a few years ago as a birthday present.

Dan Seguin  34:59

Next, who is someone that you admire?

Dick Bakker  35:01

Peggy my, my wife, mother of my children, business partner, best friend and a no BS problem solver.

Dan Seguin  35:09

Okay? What was the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed

Dick Bakker  35:15

Birth of a child who grows into an adult who has a child. Now,

Dan Seguin  35:19

Now, as a result of the pandemic? Many of us are guilty of watching a little too much TV or movies. What is your favorite movie or show? What are you watching right now?

Dick Bakker  35:31

I'd have to say the Danish movie Borgan. It's a Danish TV series on politics and the trade offs and the personalities that shows the human side of difficult decision making. It's great.

Dan Seguin  35:46

Lastly, what is exciting you about your industry right now?

Dick Bakker  35:51

Well, the electricity industry has got the possibility to democratize energy to revitalize communities and especially rural communities. So with renewables and DDR and cooperatives, we can keep the electrons' jobs and profits local. Okay,

Dan Seguin  36:10

Dick, our listeners, if they want to learn more about you, how do they connect?

Dick Bakker  36:15

Probably the best way is to go online and check. or orec website.

Dan Seguin  36:24

This is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.

Dick Bakker  36:33

I did. Thank you very much, Dan. It's wonderful.

Dan Seguin  36:37

Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.