Consumer impact: revisiting grid modernization with Capgemini Canada
Sep 22, 2025
Grid modernization goes beyond smart meters. It’s making the grid more responsive, customer-focused, and resilient. Andrea Nuesser, Grid Modernization Leader at Capgemini Canada, joins thinkenergy to explain how smart tech, real-time data, and evolving customer relationships are changing how electricity is delivered, managed, and consumed. From account numbers to engaged consumers, electric vehicles to home energy, listen in to learn how the grid of the future will shape how you consume energy.
Related links
IESO Peaks Perks Program: https://saveonenergy.ca/en/For-Your-Home/Peak-Perks
Dr. Andrea Newer on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-andrea-nuesser-201147188/
Capgemini: https://www.capgemini.com/ca-en/
Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/
Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en
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Transcript:
Trevor Freeman 00:07
Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at thinkenergy, at hydroottawa.com,
Trevor Freeman 00:31
Hi everyone, and welcome back. I'm really excited about today's topic, as we are revisiting something that we've already talked about on the show before, grid modernization. So grid modernization is one of those topics that covers a lot of ground and is really a descriptor of the technology, the systems and the process changes that we're going to see as we grow and evolve the grid to support our changing energy needs. It can be pretty technical if you get into all the details of the sensors and the data points. But it's also a topic that carries a lot of possibility, and at least to energy nerds like me, a lot of excitement about what is to come for our energy future. It really kind of gets into the things that we might see and be able to do with our grid to manage our energy needs. So lots of very cool stuff. It comes up in a lot of different things we talk about. So the concepts that we're going to go through today are not going to be new, for sure, but a little over a year ago, I had a conversation on this show with Jenna Gillis hydro, Ottawa's director of distribution engineering and asset management, specifically about grid modernization. And in that conversation, we talked through hydro Ottawa's grid modernization roadmap. You know, what do we plan on doing in the coming years related to grid modernization? So I encourage you to go back and have a listen to that episode if you haven't already or haven't recently, to get back up to speed. But just as a very high level refresher, grid modernization is the industry term for adding a lot of sensors and sensing capability and remote capabilities throughout our electricity grid a lot farther downstream, so closer to the customer than we currently have them, And at the same time building out the systems and processes back in our system office to store, analyze and make use of the vast increase in data that we're going to get from those devices. So it's, you know, putting things on our grid so that we learn more about what's going on and we have visibility into a lot more parts of the grid, and then putting systems and processes in place so that we can do stuff with that data and actually make decisions and operate the grid in a smarter way, more efficient way. So today, I want to take that conversation a little bit further and look at what this means, not only for utilities, although we'll touch on a little bit of that today as well, but also for our customers. So what does grid modernization mean for your average electricity consumer? If I'm just a homeowner and I've got a house and I want to heat that house and I want to, you know, have a car that might be an EV what? What does this mean for me? What? What's going to change in my world to help me do that? I'm really excited to have Andrea Newser on the show today. Andrea is the grid modernization leader at Capgemini Canada. She is focused on developing smart grid solutions and growing Capgemini grid modernization practice to help their clients meet various business needs and energy transition needs. Andrea is really passionate about shaping the future of energy, and is applying that passion into leadership and strategy in this space, Andrea has previously held leadership positions throughout the utility sector, working for a transmission and distribution utility, as well as for public opinion research and consulting firm. She has a PhD in Political Science from the University of British Columbia, and it's just like an all around fantastic person to talk to about this kind of stuff. And I'm really excited to have her on the show today. Andrea, welcome to the show.
Andrea Nuesser 04:10
Thank you. Trevor, pleasure to be here.
Trevor Freeman 04:12
So Andrea, I've had a conversation previously on this podcast with Hydro Ottawa's own Jenna Gillis, about what grid modernization is. We don't have to go through all the details. But just as a refresher for our listeners, and if you haven't, if you're listening and you haven't listened to that previous episode, I encourage you to go back and listen to it. But just as a refresher, grid modernization is essentially, you know, a couple different components, and we can kind of sum them up as more and smarter devices, more data from those devices and better systems to understand, store and interact with that data. Is that a fair, kind of high level summary, and is there anything you'd like to add to sort of fill out that picture for us?
Andrea Nuesser 04:59
Yeah, I think these are definitely the key ingredients. But what I think is really important to understand is, why do we want these devices, or why do we need these devices? And if you bring devices, data and systems together, what they produce is better visibility of the grid, especially when you think about the distribution grid. You referenced the episode with Jenne. She mentioned that there was quite a bit of the grid that is invisible or dark right now, because there's only visibility right down to the substation, for example, in most cases, and then there's a few feeders where you can see all the way. So really by adding these smart devices and really making use of the data by bringing them back into systems. It's like turning on the lights in areas of the systems that were previously dark. And that allows us to really understand what's happening in real time, and allows us to think of new tools that we can use to solve some solutions, new solutions, old solutions. But it expands the toolbox, essentially, of things that until now, really have not been available.
Trevor Freeman 06:07
Yeah, I think that's, it's a good, helpful point of understanding why we're going from, you could almost call it more of an analog grid, more of a one way grid. And it's a great analogy of, like, a grid with, you know, some shadows and some dark spots where we don't know exactly what's happening to a grid that's fully in the light, fully digital, or mostly digital, and much more, sort of bi directional flow of information and energy.
Andrea Nuesser 06:36
Yeah, and by seeing everything, you can basically take the safeties out a little bit, right? Because you can see you can actually build a more efficient and more affordable grid, because you know exactly what's going on. So you don't need the the extra buffer, because you can't really see you can really utilize everything on the grid that you have.
Trevor Freeman 07:00
Yeah, perfect. Okay, so that's helpful. And again, if you're listening and you're like, holy smokes, we just went right into the deep end there on question number one, definitely go back and listen to that other episode on grid modernization, because the point of today's conversation is really to build on that and to look at grid modernization through the customer lens. What does this mean, not just for the utility, just for the folks that are sitting in the system office, but for your everyday residential or business consumer. And so to start with, there's a bit of a chicken and egg situation here, where changing customer behavior is driving grid modernization. Grid Modernization is in part, reacting to what customers want and what they're doing, but grid modernization is also going to help drive that change, and customers will change as a result of some of the grid modernization we're seeing. Do you think that one of those is driving more than the other? Is it pretty equal? Essentially solve that chicken and egg dilemma for us, which one comes first?
Andrea Nuesser 08:06
Easy dilemma? No. So I think right now, in some ways, customers are leading. I think not all customers across the board, but the early adopters, I would say, are definitely leading. There are customers who are adopting new technology for various reasons, maybe because they want to green their lifestyle. That's why they switch to an EV. Or they buy an EV because they think it's cool, or it's a status symbol, or they are really just fun to drive. Other people might look to heat pumps, for example, instead of natural gas furnaces, because it's more comfortable, or it's they think it can save them money. So there's a lot of investments and actions that customers are taking without any consideration for the grid. They just do it for their own lifestyle. So they just adopt these technologies, or these these new devices, and so in some ways, the grid has to react to to these new situations. And that's a bit of a new a new situation for grid planners. They used to be in control, and now they're not anymore. So now they have to react to certain things, and credit to a lot of utilities, they are really wrapping their head around it and starting to figure out how they need to plan for these new devices to make sure that the capacity is there, that the connection times are not too long, that the grid can handle this bidirectional flow that you mentioned, because the original grid was built for a one directional flow. There was no space, really for a two directional flow, so that adds a whole bunch of complications. So I would say there's a core group of customers that's taking the lead. They're the early adopters. We're not quite there. I think in the adoption curve that it's completely mainstream, but we're getting there, and there's a handful utilities that are really leading the pack, but overall, I think they're lagging a little bit.
Trevor Freeman 10:13
Utilities are lagging in terms of being able to catch up to the pace of change that customers are moving at. Is that what you're saying?
Andrea Nuesser 10:20
I think so, and also the willingness to adopt new technology. So obviously, utilities have a huge responsibility. They need to make sure that the electricity supply is there in basically any situation. We, all of us, expect electricity to be there all the time, and often the only time we think about electricity is when it's not there during an outage. So utilities have a big responsibility to provide reliable and affordable and now increasingly green electricity. So obviously, utilities are not the biggest risk takers, and that's a good thing. But on the other hand, because of this culture of this huge responsibility, there's often a bit of a resistance to adopting innovation and new technology, and I think we're definitely seeing that, and that might lead to a bit of this lagging behavior.
Trevor Freeman 11:15
Gotcha, yeah, and I really like the point you made earlier of you know, customers, you know, I've said it on this podcast before, like, not everybody is an energy or a utility nerd like like me, and I hate to but I'm going to loop you into that as well, Andrea.
Andrea Nuesser 11:30
Absolutely
Trevor Freeman 11:31
Not everybody thinks about the grid in their day to day. In fact, most people don't think about the grid when they're making a decision around what vehicle they're going to drive or how they're going to heat their home. There are a lot of other drivers. It's just that those drivers are increasingly pointing towards things that will impact the grid, the electricity grid, but also, and I think, as we'll sort of tease out in this conversation, open the door to a lot more opportunity and possibility for grid operators. So it's, it's a we're moving in a direction that creates challenges for big, risk averse utilities, but also creates a lot of opportunity for those utilities, if they can sort of get it right and start, you know, understanding customers, which is the point of our conversation here today.
Andrea Nuesser 12:20
Yes, absolutely. I think we are at a really exciting time, actually, where, in some ways, customers and the grid are growing much closer together, or at least there's this opportunity to bringing them closer together. I said earlier that most customers, when they adopt electric vehicles or heat pumps, don't think about the grid, but here's an opportunity to engage them, to turn them into active participants. So they are taking some actions already. So if, if the utility can reach out to them and really engage them, these are the customers who are very willing, often to take different actions that will benefit the grid. And we can dive deeper into what that could be.
Trevor Freeman 13:01
Yeah, well, let's do that right now. Actually, it's exactly where I wanted to go. Next is, you know, you and I have chatted before and talked about how there is this shift in how utilities are seeing customers, and there's a, you know, a traditional mindset of how utilities looked at their customers, which has been different from, you know, take your average retail customer, or a retail relationship between an organization and a customer, utilities are shifting more so let's dive into that. Tell me a little bit more about what that shift is and how you see utilities moving in terms of how they engage with customers.
Andrea Nuesser 13:35
Yeah, so when I started working with utilities, the term ratepayer was a very prominent term. So utilities would refer to their customers as rate payers, or in terms of account numbers, really, and what matters. What mattered was really just how much electricity do these accounts or these rate payers consume? And there was very little other consideration around that. So I think there's a real shift happening right now where utilities are trying to understand who is this, who is this family, who are these individuals behind these account numbers? Because if I understand and if I become interested as a utility in who is actually consuming electricity, I can have a very different relationship with them. I can reach them with with the right messaging, because it matters a lot to me. If somebody talks to me and understands that, let's say I'm a growing family living in a more urban area, versus a retired couple out in the woods somewhere. So I think demonstrating that understanding really opens up opportunities for much deeper relationship and more targeted customer programs and overall different messaging and communication. And ultimately an opportunity to build trust between customers and utilities, something that in the past, has been a little bit shaky, I would say. But there's huge opportunity to build brand awareness, to build this, this value based relationship, and to build trust.
Trevor Freeman 15:20
Yeah, I mean, traditionally, when you when you've got a grid that isn't really being stressed, let's say like it's very one directional, there's enough capacity for what people want to do. It doesn't really matter to the utility or to the operator side of things. You know what people are thinking and what they're intending on doing as long as, you know, there's enough capacity on this line to handle everybody downstream. I don't really care what they're doing. I just need to know that the line's big enough. But increasingly, as we're moving to, you know, needing to maximize capacity on each individual line, because we've got more and more load coming on, and we've got load that's very dynamic. It doesn't necessarily follow the same usage patterns. It does make sense to understand what those customers are doing, and it makes sense to try and partner with those customers to maybe influence behavior or ask them to act in a certain way or at a certain time, tell us a little bit about what the utility can gain by being really smart about understanding their customers.
Andrea Nuesser 16:29
Yeah, I think at first when it comes to just predicting what customers are going to do, if I have an understanding of what my customers are trying to do, in terms of EV adoption, switching to heat pumps using more or less electricity. That allows me to plan a grid that actually meets the customer's needs. If I have certain assumptions only, and if I don't really listen to or really dive into what customers are likely to do, I will plan a grid that has nothing to do with customer behavior. So that mismatch is likely going to be expensive and likely going to cause problems for everyone. So I think the first thing that utilities have to gain is really a prioritization of their spend while making customers happy. So if I can, if I can optimize the spending, customers will be happy, because rates won't go up as much as in a different scenario. And if I build a grid that is ready for what customers are going to do, that is also exactly what customers expect. Right when, when you buy an electric vehicle, you assume that there's enough capacity on the grid. Hopefully there is. And I think that's what understanding customer behavior and really digging into who the different customers are can help utilities. I think that's one step that's really just understanding what they're planning to do. In addition to that, and we can maybe stick with the EV example, there are also ways, once you understand customers, you can communicate with them and maybe nudge them to slightly change their behavior. EVs are a great example, because EV charging is somewhat non-fixed. So you have a lot of discrepancy over when you need to charge your vehicle, because most drivers don't really drive enough to empty their battery every single day. So when you plug in your vehicle and when you charge is at your own discretion. It matters a lot, though, to the grid when you plug in. And just to go back to this previous episode that you referred to with Jenna, if everybody plugged in at the same time, it would create a new peak, and that would create a real problem for the grid. So if you could convince customers to plug in at slightly different times, or at times when the strain on the grid is not very high that could make a huge difference for necessary grid investments. So if we know who these customers are, if we know how to best get to them and convince them that their behavior matters, and how we can incentivize them to take a small action that can have, again, a really big benefit on the grid. And customers might actually feel really happy, because they feel like they're doing something. They are helping the grid with the small action that is somewhat inconsequential for them with but has a big impact for the grid.
Trevor Freeman 19:39
Yeah, and it's, it's almost like there's learning on both sides there again, we're, we're so used to both as customers in the utility. We're so used to just when I need that power, that power is there. When I flick that switch, the lights come on. When I plug my car in, it charges. Oh, yeah. And the utility needs to kind of get out of that mindset and say, Well, no, we can. We can ask for things we can ask for customers to change behavior and be customers need to also get out of that mindset and say, No, it's to your point. It's really no, no difference to me, if my car charges from the time I get home at work at five o'clock until one in the morning, or from 11 o'clock at night until five in the morning, because I'm not leaving until seven anyway. So by asking for things, and by understanding what our customers realities our utilities, can really kind of have that conversation and say, Well, what does work? What's it going to take for you to change that behavior? And the impacts of the positive impacts on our grid planning and construction are immense.
Andrea Nuesser 20:41
Absolutely, and I think that these types of behaviors and actions are what builds that trust too, and builds that different relationship, and ultimately creates value, I think, both for customers and for utilities. Because one thing that sometimes I think is missing a little bit is an appreciation for the work that utilities do. As we said earlier, electricity is taken for granted. It's always expected to be there, and when the lights go out or when the power goes out, what people miss is the internet, in a way. So in some ways, there's this, this misconstrued perception that the internet is somewhat more valuable. However, the internet is only possible because it's powered by electricity. So how do we make that? That's which in perception that customers really understand there's a lot of value in electricity, and I think, through engaging customers in ways that demonstrate an understanding, that demonstrate an interest in their life. That's how you build that that value perception and that trusting relationship.
Trevor Freeman 21:54
So who out there is doing this? Andrea like, who? Who does this? Well, what? Who do we look to in the utility sector, or who does the utility sector look to as an example of doing this well?
Andrea Nuesser 22:07
I would say in terms of brand awareness and building solid brands and trusting relationships, the retail sector is probably the biggest one to look at, because they have created real loyal customers. You can see it even in loyalty programs. So and you probably, if you think about your own life, you know which brands you trust, which which retailers you are, you're loyal to. So I think there's a lot to learn for utilities to figure out how can you create similar value propositions, similar relationships, so that customers, even though they often don't have a choice because utilities have the monopoly over their geography. But how do you create a relationship where customers want to interact with you? They want to deal with you? Because in this world where there's more and more energy offerings, that's going to be one of the key things that that I believe utilities need to build an efficient grid and to do the things that they need to do, because then they will always need customer support.
Trevor Freeman 23:26
Is there anybody that has sort of started down that path within the utility sector? Anybody, any utilities or sort of utility adjacent organizations that are starting to get it right?
Andrea Nuesser 23:40
Yeah, I think, for example, the IESO has started their Peak Perks program, which is an interesting Demand Response program. So for the listeners who were not aware of the program, if you have a smart thermostat at home, you can enroll your smart thermostat and you can for an incentive, a sign up incentive, essentially give control to the ISO to control your smart thermostat on days where the grid is particularly strange. And the program was launched, I believe, just over two years ago. And in two years, the IESO has enlisted over 250,000 customers. So it demonstrates, I think, that a lot of customers, in Ontario at least, are really willing to do their piece for a certain incentive. I'm sure the monetary incentive that you're getting is not hurting, but other customers are doing it because they want to do the right thing. And during the recent heat wave, the IESO has activated the program twice in one week and has achieved significant reductions in load, which really helped get the grid through this this heat wave. Hydro One has a similar program. They have created a program to address distribution system needs rather than bulk system needs. But these are two examples that come to mind where utilities are taking the stance or utility adjacent organizations are engaging customers as active participants. So they're really reaching out to these customers, and they're asking for something, for small actions that they will then translate through aggregation into a big benefit for the grid.
Trevor Freeman 25:30
Yeah, and I think so you mentioned the monetary incentive, which obviously doesn't hurt. You mentioned there's, there's folks that really kind of want to do the right thing. I think the other important thing is the, you know, let's call it the negative impact, or the downside for the customer, is so minimal, like the the ask here is really not putting anybody out that much, but in the aggregate, the benefit is, is quite large. And just for our listeners, IESO, here is the Independent Electricity System Operator. We're in Ontario, and these are sort of Ontario based programs that that Andrea is talking about.
Andrea Nuesser 26:04
Correct, and there's other utilities too outside of Canada, who have also launched very successful demand response programs. So there's definitely a lot of examples out there where, where utilities are taking this, this approach, of engaging customers again as active participants. And there's also others, I believe hydro Ottawa is one of them, one of the utilities, who's trying to give more insights and more control to customers over their energy usage. That's, I would say, another really good outreach and engagement form for customers.
Trevor Freeman 26:44
Yeah, absolutely. I was just gonna say, like, you know, for our hydro Ottawa listeners, you know, stay tuned for more programs like this, or more ways that our customers will be able to interact with us in this way, similar to what we're talking about here. Andrea, quickly, are there major barriers that are kind of holding us back from engaging with customers in the way that utilities are wanting to? You know, what we've just described here sounds like it makes a whole lot of sense, but it's, you know, it's a hill to climb. It's not easy. What are some of the barriers that are holding us back?
Andrea Nuesser 27:22
There are definitely a few. I would say. One barrier is, in a way, the culture within a utility. As we have elaborated throughout this conversation, utilities are changing. So in the past, utilities didn't really have to engage with their customers, so the culture was not really one of mutual understanding. So there's a bit of a risk averse position that utilities are taking, and they don't often have the most say marketing minded people. So to me, that's one thing where utilities are hesitant to reach out to their customers and to ask for things, because that's just not what they're used to. In addition to that, utilities are not actually collecting a lot of data from their customers, as compared to other retailers, we all give them a lot of data to, to work with, so they know us pretty well. Utilities collect very little data, little demographic data actually about their customers, so there's not a huge pool of data to to go on from the get go. So I would say that's another barrier. There's ways around it where you can augment the data that you have with other available data to create more holistic customer mindset. And then lastly, there are, or there used to be, I think, some regulatory barriers where utilities weren't exactly either incented to reach out to customers, so there was no way they could, they could be compensated for their outreach efforts, because it takes a lot. It takes a big apparatus. Basically, it takes a lot of people. It takes the right systems, and often utilities had trouble getting compensated for these types of systems. So I would say that's that's another barrier that is diminishing, because, again, there's the expectation that utilities provide more customer value through direct outreach and engagement. So these types of barriers are definitely shrinking.
Trevor Freeman 29:38
Yeah, it's, it's exciting to see some of those things changing, and there's no question there's work to be done, for sure, but even I mean, obviously I'm biased, but speaking from within the utility, I can see these barriers falling down as we talk more about where we need to get to, what we need to do, and there's a willingness to sort of start to move forward in some of these avenues. We've been talking primarily about why this is good for the utility and good for the grid, and some of the benefits that we'll see there. We've touched a little bit on what the customer experience will be, but I want to dive into that in a little bit more detail. So the way I see it, and I'm going to kind of give you a couple of different categories to talk about here on talk about here, Andrea, but there are some changes coming from the customer perspective. Talk us through what the possibilities are for each of these. And the first one is around availability of data. So as we get more data as a utility from our grid and from what's happening, some of that data is being made available to the customers. Customers will have more insight into their own usage patterns, etc. What is coming or what's the benefit from from that from the customer perspective?
Andrea Nuesser 30:56
Yeah, if I understand not only how much electricity I use, but when I use this electricity, maybe even what appliances use the most electricity in my household, I have much better knowledge base to make my own decisions and manage my energy consumption. So most, as we said earlier, most utility customers, are no electricity experts, so they need that little bit of help to understand where could they potentially save on their electricity bill. And by giving customers these insights, when electricity is the most expensive, when is it cheapest, what are the right rates that are available to me, and maybe which rate is the best one for me to adopt, based on my consumption patterns, based on maybe future purchasing decisions. Bringing all of that data together allows me as a consumer to make much better decisions and to manage my my energy wallet, so to speak, in a much better way. So, so that's definitely one benefit.
Trevor Freeman 32:02
There's also the idea of, you know, if we understand what's being used when, both at the customer level and utility level, and there's some control over that, we can maximize existing infrastructure. And I'm thinking specifically about, you know, needing to do a service upgrade if I want to add some piece of equipment, how will this move towards modernization help reduce the number of service upgrades, or just kind of help us be smarter about that and more strategic about that?
Andrea Nuesser 32:36
Yeah, there's some really new and exciting technologies that are being developed right now. So in the past, everything was very rules based. So if you had a standard connection, and now you wanted to add, I don't know, a pool, or you wanted to add an EV or battery or so on, everything was basically rules based and when you use the your different appliances was not really taken into consideration. It's grid planners used to for their own protection. Assume the worst case, the worst case was that you would use all of your appliances at the same time. However, if you understand that the that certain appliances are never being used at the same time. Or if you allow for certain timed EV charging, for example, so that your dryer and your EV charger never run at the same time, you can avoid service upgrades. That means you can avoid truck rolls. You can avoid upgrades to your equipment and your infrastructure. So in that sense, you can get more out of your existing infrastructure without harming the customer. In fact, it might actually be a benefit to the customer from the get go, because you don't have to wait for your connection. Your connection might be available right away, as long as you're willing to to commit to, again, not maybe running your dryer and your EV charger at the same time during certain time periods. So again, this this back and forth, and having more insights could really help expedite timelines. Could lower costs, because customers often have to pay for the upgrades, and ultimately, it can affect rates on a positive way, because you don't need to upgrade the underlying infrastructure.
Trevor Freeman 34:28
Yeah, this is one of those ones that I really like talking about it, because it's it's a benefit that goes from the very sort of micro scale all the way up to the macro scale, when you're looking at the whole grid by better utilizing the resources and the capacity we have, and not having to build for that worst case scenario where everything's on all at once, which almost never happens, we can reduce those costs, reduce that build out at the household level, at the sort of transformer level, the feeder level, the station level, all the way up to the grid level. And you can see that benefit just roll all the way up, which is really kind of fascinating to see. And you know, you mentioned some of the different technologies that are going to allow that, things like smart panels or even programs like demand response programs. Just a teaser for our listeners, you know, things like that are some of the topics that I've got kind of on my wish list for this season of of the podcast. So we'll be diving into some of those in a little bit more detail in the weeks to come or months to come. We'll see. The next area here Andrea that I'd like to talk about is more distributed energy resources. So we're seeing this, you know, increasing adoption curve of household solar. We're at the very beginning of but starting to see more potential household storage. So batteries in the home. How will grid modernization help customers access this or utilize this more more efficiently?
Andrea Nuesser 36:04
Yeah, let's think about battery storage, for example. So quite often, customers would install a battery if they experience frequent outages, if they are in an area of the grid that's not particularly strong and more susceptible to storms and outages. So one of the drivers for customers is they want to become more resilient, essentially, and that's why they would invest in battery storage. It's a significant investment. So customers will want to look for ways that help them recuperate that investment so through grid modernization, if, if the grid can also tap into that battery that a customer installs inside their home or in their garage, that would be, again, a win win for both the grid and the customer. And the way that would work is, if you as a customer just installed the battery, it would essentially sit there the whole time waiting for an outage. That seems relatively wasteful. However, if you know that you can connect it to the grid, and whenever the grid is strained and needs this extra boost and this extra influx of electricity, you could make a certain portion of this battery available for common use, and you could, that way, sell this electricity back to the system. And if you could, in addition to that, make use of either time use pricing, or if you can sell it at a better price, then it's then you have to pay to charge the battery. Then it becomes actually really interesting value proposition for both customers and grid operators, because again, for grid operators, the benefit is they don't have to invest in upgrading the infrastructure. They essentially just procure temporary services from customers. But in the end, both parties could win if we have all the tools in place to really utilize this, this asset. But what it takes is, again, visibility. So you need to know where these assets are. You need to understand how they fit into the flow of of electricity, and there needs to be some sort of control mechanism to make sure it's helpful and not harmful. So that's, I think, how, how that would would benefit both parties again.
Trevor Freeman 38:34
Yeah, that last piece is absolutely critical of you know that the generation or the storage technology can be there, it can be as advanced as we can make it, but without that grid modernization piece, without that visibility into all these devices, utilities can't benefit from it, and therefore can't, you know, incentivize customers to do this or work with customers to find that sort of mutually beneficial relationship. So that grid mod piece is pretty critical for for that technology to really kind of take off. Outages. And, you know, communication around outages, does that change from a customer perspective as a result of grid modernization?
Andrea Nuesser 39:15
Yes, it should, and hopefully it changes significantly, because we talked earlier about this analog grid. So what it really means is you don't know what's going on towards the edge of your grid. Distribution system operators have a pretty good understanding of what's happening, let's say, at the core of the grid. But the further you go out, the further you go towards the endpoints, the households, the businesses, the less visibility you have and the less you really understand what's going on. What that means is sometimes for outages, customers need to call in to alert the distributor that the power is out. So that obviously takes time. So the call comes in, then the assessment needs to be made, and sometimes truck needs to need to roll to actually investigate the problem. So all of that takes a lot of time. With grid modernization, we essentially have sensors everywhere we light up the grid, and we get automatically notified when something is not lit up, essentially when something is happening. And then there could be a lot of automation to automatically turn the power back on, to have a self healing grid, for example, where the grid decides for itself, where it needs to switch power to, which measures need to be taken to to remedy that particular situation. So it takes some of the human response time out, a lot of which is really footwork, so to speak. So in that sense, it's a it's becoming more convenient for customers, because they don't have to take any action, they don't have to call in, they don't have to wait as long. And if it's a longer wait time because it's a more severe damage due to a storm, usually, what grid modernization also does is improve the outage communication. So if I know that Trevor is connected to a certain transformer at the certain feeder which is fed by the substation, and I know all of this is out, I can send much more targeted information and much more accurate information about the response time to you so that you can take the proper preparations. Do I stay at home? Do I need to go somewhere because it's going to be a longer outage? So again, it gives customers a lot more insights and a lot more opportunity to to act or react.
Trevor Freeman 41:41
Yeah, this is definitely one that, as you mentioned earlier, a lot of folks right now really only think about us when the lights go out, and so this will be a welcome sort of improvement to how things run today. The more responsive and smart we can get with our outages and outage communications, the better for sure. Last one on this before we move on, is sort of the opening the door to third party involvement in the energy relationship. Let's call it so I mean an example would be Apple introduced the iPhone, and sort of revolutionized smartphones or invented smartphones, but it's really the third party apps and software and all the things that have come since that have really taken it to the next level. What does that look like for energy and utilities as we have more data and modernize the grid?
Andrea Nuesser 42:39
There's, I would say, a wide range of examples that you can use. So a pretty simple one, and one that I think a lot of customers are experiencing, is a smart thermostat. So you usually, if you have a smart thermostat, quite often, you use it through the app. So by connecting your own devices, you can control it via the app, and the same mechanism also then helps utilities take control through demand response, for example, over these over these devices. So again, it's it's convenience for the for the consumer, but it also allows taking control and aggregating loads that are that were previously impossible, essential to aggregate other. I would say third party applications are just providing these insights for customers and breaking these insights, these energy consumption insights down into meaningful into meaningful messages and into meaningful actions. Potentially so if I get alerted that my fridge, for example, is really inefficient and is using way more electricity than any fridge should lose, that gives me a real nudge to look into what could be wrong with my fridge and investigate whether or not I should maybe replace this fridge. Similar to you can go all the way to EV charging, for example, again, a lot of EV related issues are driven through an app. So you have all of a sudden, everything is very digitized, and it's you have much more control as a consumer in the palm of your hand, essentially, and linking these devices to your electricity usage, I think, can be really, really powerful.
Trevor Freeman 44:37
Yeah. It definitely sort of adds more data into our decision making around how we use energy, how we sort of minimize our costs and maximize our benefits, etc, when it comes to energy.
Andrea Nuesser 44:50
And increase our comfort in some ways.
Trevor Freeman 44:52
Yeah, absolutely.
Andrea Nuesser 44:53
Another one. When you think about smart thermostats or EVs, for example, it's just really convenient if you can, if you can control everything from your app.
Trevor Freeman 45:03
Yeah, absolutely. Okay. That was great. Andrea, thank you. There is one piece of technology, I know I said this was going to be mostly focused on the customer, but I do want to touch quickly on, I guess, the piece of technology on the grid that is closest to the customer, and that is our sort of metering technology, one of the sort of pieces, and folks may be familiar with this terminology that is coming as part of grid modernization, is called AMI 2.0 and AMI here stands for advanced metering infrastructure. And 2.0 of course, implies that there was a 1.0 which indeed there is here in Ontario, AMI 1.0 was rolled out kind of over the first decade of this century, 2000 to 2010 and this was really the switch from analog, you know, very old school metering technology, to what you might call a smart meter, a digital smart meter. And this is what you know if you're if you're electricity customer in Ontario, if you look at the side of your house or your building, you will almost definitely see an AMI 1.0 meter. Prior to AMI 1.0 meters were kind of read manually. Someone had to come by your house and actually look at your meter, and all it said was, from the last reading to this reading. Here's how much electricity you used. AMI 1.0 allowed for time of use for remote reading, etc. So that was a long preamble. My question Andrea is, what is AMI 2.0 what's changing? How are we getting better than the existing smart meter? And what does that open the door to?
Andrea Nuesser 46:43
Yeah? So AMI 2.0 is a bit of an overused term, I would say, and there's, unfortunately not a super clear definition out there what AMI 2.0 is. Sometimes it's, I think, mistakenly used as just a new iteration of these meters. So the second go around, because we're in Ontario at the point where most utilities have to replace their AMI one meters, because they're ending their useful service life. So AMI 2.0 opens up a lot of new opportunities. And what's really cool about this new technology, and it varies a little bit depending on the specific vendor, but I think what most of them really are trying to leverage is grid edge intelligence. So what does grid edge intelligence mean? It really means you are in these meters installing a processor, like a computer processor, essentially inside the meter on the side of the house. So that means the amount of data and the type of data that you can collect is a lot more than just consumption data. So you can you can get more data. You can get data more frequently, and you have the ability on some of these meters to process some of the data right there at the edge of the grid. That's where this term grid edge intelligence comes from. So essentially, you are, you are installing a sensor that tells you a lot of what's happening on the grid, all over the grid. So again, it's like installing little flashlights everywhere that ultimately lead to this illuminated view of the grid. And I think especially the ability to process data much faster and in a decentralized way allows us to get near real time, or sometimes real time information about what's going on, both information that you can convey to the customer, how much electricity Am I currently using and for what, but also for the grid operators. Is the grid strained in an area right now, and is this? Is the stress on the grid concentrated in specific areas, and what can I do to mitigate this? So I think it allows us to, again, gain a much better understanding, much quicker assessment of the situation. And it's a bit of a gateway of a new form of communication and engagement between customers and the grid.
Trevor Freeman 49:21
Yeah, it's that, you know, like you said, increased visibility all the way the very, very edge of the grid, helping us really understand, start to finish, what's happening when it's happening, and what we can do about it. Great. Thank you for that. And I thought it was important to kind of just touch on that one piece of technology. Just as we wrap up here, Andrea, I'm gonna throw kind of a tough question at you. How fast are we moving like this? All that we're talking about here today, some of it, we're starting to see the seeds of some of it feels a little bit futuristic or a little bit further down the road. You know, we're seeing the pace of. Growth in electricity demand and DER penetration really ramp up almost exponentially, if not definitely exponentially. When we think about AI, data centers, things like that, how fast will we see this change at the utility level, and then, therefore the customer, the customer side of things?
Andrea Nuesser 50:18
I think you just painted the right picture. Utilities won't have a choice because of all the pressures and challenges challenges that are coming. Utilities also need to adopt these new technologies much faster than they have in the past. So I think we are definitely seeing an accelerated timeline compared to what we've seen before. So with AMI, for example, again, in Ontario and in a lot of other jurisdictions, the first generation AMI meters are coming to the to the end of life. So AMI 2.0 is being rolled out now, and we're seeing the rollout really picking up in different areas. So that means we we're creating the canvas so to speak to and to utilize all of these new technologies, and we are seeing a lot of utilities exploring different use cases to really link the technology to their business as usual. So what can they use this technology for? And how do they need to change their processes to really get the value out of it and make some of their processes more efficient? How can they use it to connect some more of these loads or more der so it's it's happening. It's still a bit disjointed, I would say. But it's happening. And here in Ontario, I would say the regulatory pressures are also mounting. So utilities are forced to look into non wires alternatives. So alternatives to traditional poles and wires type solutions, so solutions where utilities could procure certain services, for example, for a period of time, rather than building new infrastructure from the ground up. And that's a way to really integrate these new distributed energy resources as solutions to grid problems. So it's coming. And on top of that, I will say customers are expecting more. They are expecting more and more on a daily basis, and that's kind of fueled by what they're seeing around them in terms of customer service that they're getting from other service providers. They are expecting more choice and to do whatever they would like to do, and they expect almost perfect reliability. So if you put all of these pressures together, I think utilities have no choice but to move. And what I find exciting is that some utilities are really embracing it. And I think hydro was a great example for really embracing some of these new technologies and figuring out how they could really benefit the business.
Trevor Freeman 53:01
Yeah, it's, it's kind of what we said at the beginning of the conversation, where both the customer pressure as well as the sort of needs of the utility and just reality of of energy are really driving us in that in that direction. Last question before we wrap up here, what's going to stand in the way? What's the biggest barrier or obstacle that we kind of need to work our way through?
Andrea Nuesser 53:24
Well, I mentioned culture earlier, so I think this risk averse nature of utilities is definitely potentially getting in the way of adopting new technologies and and really thinking in innovative ways. So utilities never want to be the first so I think that's a mindset barrier that a lot of utilities still need to get over. There are still some regulatory rules that might make it difficult too to adopt new technologies, because usually utilities need to prove that something works, and they need to prove the value to the regulator before they are allowed to invest in some of these technologies, so that there's some, some, some work that needs to be done too. But over time, it should get better. And in the same vein, some utilities are still missing the right financial incentives depending on where you are located. So, adopting these new technologies and creating non wire alternatives, again, is a new way of thinking about planning and operating the grid and how utilities are getting compensated, how they how utilities are getting enabled to compensate customers for taking actions. All of that is is being worked out, but it's still not completely set in stone. And maybe lastly, getting back to the customer relationship, that could be another barrier that that utilities have not built this trusting relationship with their customer yet. So the I would say, the better the relationship is with the customer, the more you can actually ask customers to take actions and make this all a success. So again, that's where we come back to, I would say, the beginning of our conversation, where it's really critical to invest in this customer relationship, because then these meaningful, beneficial actions can really be unlocked, otherwise, utilities might leave value on the table.
Trevor Freeman 55:27
Absolutely, yeah, very exciting. Andrea, thanks so much for your time today. I really appreciate it. We always end our conversations with a series of questions, so I'm going to dive into those and excited to kind of hear your answers on these. What is a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?
Andrea Nuesser 55:46
That was a difficult one. I was standing in front of my bookshelf for a while. But then I picked Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman. I think it's just a really fascinating book that that gives really important insights in how we make judgments, how we make decisions, how we can go through the world driven by biases, and how we can maybe change these perceptions, and what we need to do to overcome overcome some of these biases and make better decisions. So I would highly recommend that one.
Trevor Freeman 56:20
Yeah, sounds good. Same question, but for a movie or a show or something you've been watching lately that you think everyone should take a look at.
Andrea Nuesser 56:28
Recently, I watched the show Chen Arbil and why it stuck with me. I think we all know what happened generally, when this this nuclear power station accident happened. But what was really interesting in this show is how people made decisions, and what some of the barriers were to taking real action, and who the courageous people were, and who the people were that were kind of hiding behind protocol and not rocking the boat. So I thought it was a really insightful show. And we can all learn something about how difficult it can be to step out and make the right decision.
Trevor Freeman 57:10
Yeah, for sure, I love that show for exactly that reason that you just highlighted. The other thing I really love is, to me, it's like kind of a master class and how to explain something that's pretty complex and technical and to a non in a non complex way, like it really boils it down at the end of that show you kind of feel like you understand how a nuclear reactor works, which, of course, none of us really know, or maybe you do, but I don't really know how a nuclear reactor works, but, but you almost you feel like it, right? You get the basic points. And I thought the show and the writing of it did an excellent job of that. So that's a good one. If someone offer you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?
Andrea Nuesser 57:54
I think they would go to Japan. It's a country I haven't been to, but somehow I've heard so much about it lately from people who went on vacation and were super excited. For some reason, my nine year old daughter really wants to go too. So I think this might be a good destination.
Trevor Freeman 58:12
It's on the list that sounds good. Who is someone that you really admire?
Andrea Nuesser 58:17
I would say Michelle Obama. I think she's a really powerful and impressive character. She She managed to play the role of the First Lady super well, but then she also really came out of the shadow of her husband in a in a way. And what I admire is her courage to bring up topics and and talk about topics and her books, her podcasts and so on that nobody really wanted to talk about, but she does it with such poise and elegance. I really admire that.
Trevor Freeman 58:51
Yeah, she's definitely someone if, if you haven't kind of listened to like you said her podcast or read her book, I think there's some really great content there. It's I always enjoy listening to her when she speaks. And last question, what is something that you're really excited about when it comes to the energy sector or its future?
Andrea Nuesser 59:10
I think we can really make a difference, and that's such an important position we are in. So we, all of us, are going to rely more and more on electricity. So electricity is playing an increasingly important role in everyone's life, and we who work in the sector can make such a big impact on society, on economic development, really on the environment. So we have a huge responsibility, and that really excites me. So we need to get this right, and I think we're living at a time where we get a huge opportunity to get this right. So let's make it happen.
Trevor Freeman 59:48
I love it. That's such a great place to end on, and really echoes all the reasons that I work where I work and like doing what I do. So thanks so much for your time today and the insights you've shared. Really appreciate it and great having you on the podcast.
Andrea Nuesser 1:00:01
Yeah, thanks for having me. It was really fun.
Trevor Freeman 1:00:03
Awesome. Take care, Andrea.
Andrea Nuesser 1:00:04
Thank you.
Trevor Freeman 1:00:06
Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at thinkenergy at hydroottawa.com.